Talk:2012 end-of-year rugby union internationals

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Untitled

I added the New Zealand Maori vs. Canada game, but the Maori also play the Leicester Tigers as well as an RFU Championship XV. Since these last two are not international matches, I didn't include them. If someone feels otherwise, feel free to include them too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Volda12 (talk • contribs) 06:23, 30 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Scores under the scores?

In week 1, under the score (15 - 29) is another score (10 - 12). Is that the handicapped score? How is that calculated? The source of the report doesn't seem to be working. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grande (talk • contribs) 23:37, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is the half time score; no idea why it has been put in, it is not, AFAIK, standard practice. Hamish59 (talk) 15:05, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Teams for matches in Namibia and North Wales

Why have the team lineups for the Colwyn Bay matches and the matches in Namibia been deleted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beknow (talk • contribs) 12:19, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In the first case (Colwyn Bay matches) I suspect it is because the detailed information can now be found at 2012 International Rugby Series Hamish59 (talk) 12:59, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be better to add the details and team lineups back to the main page as well as the on the 2012 International Rugby Series page. And also add the Namibian match lineups in as well. --Beknow (talk) 16:33, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tautology

For the referees, do we really need a flag AND a nationality? e.g. Jaco Peyper (South Africa)

Italy / New Zealand attendance

This article is stating that the attendance at the Italy / New Zealand watch was 75,000. Can we have a referecnce for this, please. I note that AS Roma claims a total capacity of 70,634 which casts doubt on the 75,000 attendance. Hamish59 (talk) 15:53, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I note that the FIR claims 73,000 and you would think that they would know the correct figure... Hamish59 (talk) 15:57, 18 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Club matches

I'm deleting the matches involving club teams. A test match is a match between two international sides, thus the games involving Leicester, Gloucester and Newcastle are not tests. I've also deleted any games involving the NZ Maori and the RFU Invitational Side. – Pee Jay 17:12, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

PeeJay, by the same token is it also reasonable to remove the games involving the French Barbarians, Basque Selection and Oxford University? Also, as Ireland v Fiji was not a capped game for Ireland, does it constitute a "test" or should it also be removed? For the removed games, is it worth adding a page on "end of year Tours non-test matches" or some such? Hamish59 (talk) 19:12, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I've deleted all of those. And no, there is no need for an article on non-test matches since they are hardly notable. – Pee Jay 20:47, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree, I think that it would be a good idea to have a "end of year Tours non-test matches" article, many of the matches are quite significant, for instance the French Barbarians vs Japan match is comparable in quality and significance to many test matches. I'd appreciate it if such an article were to be created. --Kafuffle (talk) 20:59, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For consistency, then, the "mid-year test series" articles also need to have the same logic applied to them. The 2012 one includes games like SA Barbarians North v England, a game whose result is noted in the 2012 England tour of South Africa article. --Bcp67 (talk) 19:54, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

PeeJay, I am very sorry if I gave you the impression that I was agreeing with your proposal to remove the matches in question, but I was merely looking for clarity. Hence, I was asking questions. I think the information is useful and should be retained, on this page or in a new article as needs be. I see no consensus, so can we stop the edit-warring and discuss further? Hamish59 (talk) 21:34, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have re-added all the non-test macthes as they are of significance to the article. These non-test matches have been on the article since September and no one complained about it. Wikipedia is meant to give information out, and this particular article to give scores on the end-of-year international season regardless of its match status. So just leave them!, and end this edit war.--Rugby.change (talk) 02:59, 27 November 2012 (UTC

Completely disagree. If a match involves a club side, it's not an international match. I can just about tolerate the inclusion of matches involving A sides, but not club teams. See scrum.com for their list of proper international fixtures. – Pee Jay 03:39, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone who has helped create the article from the start is in disagreement with you. The non-test matches are part of the new IRB scheme and are therefor highly relevant to the article. A paragraph has been added to the introductory paragraph explaining why the non-test/club matches are there. Rugby.change (talk) 03:45, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I hope you don't think I'm basing this on personal opinion. The fact is, Wikipedia has guidelines about including content based on how it is reported in reliable, third-party sources. The IRB is not one of those sources, but scrum.com is. Show me a reliable, third-party source that considers Gloucester v Fiji to be of the same standard as Wales v New Zealand and we can talk. – Pee Jay 03:51, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the guideline, but if Wikipedia was so strict with these guidelines, then the club matches that were in place in 2010 (2 years ago) would have been removed by the administrators. It also applies to this year's matches. The club matches have been in here since September, agian if the guidelines were strick the administrators would have removed them long before this discussion. No one has complained about the non-test matches being in a article for test matches Rugby.change (talk) 04:01, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

BS. No one has complained because, much as it pains me to say it, rugby union is not a popular topic on Wikipedia. There are very few experienced editors who patrol RU pages, so the chances of someone who actually understands Wikipedia guidelines coming along and finding this page are slim. And just because something has remained on the page for two years does not mean it should have been there in the first place, it just means no one noticed it before. – Pee Jay 10:56, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Another thing is, the non-test matches, they don't even include half as much detail as the test matches do. You said it yourself, the club v international matches are 'hardly notable' so it shouldn't matter if there is a brief result for the match. Rugby.change (talk) 04:09, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

PeeJay, please stop removing these matches until a proper discussion / consensus has been reached. I believe that both yourself and Rugby.change are guilty of violating the WP:3RR. Please discuss and settle the matter here, or take it to arbitration. Enough, already. Hamish59 (talk) 09:00, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My opinion. I fully accept that the matches in question (e.g. Gloucester v Fiji) are not test matches, but I believe that the information is nevertheless useful and important, and should be retained. As indicated, they are part of the IRB's scheme to improve competitiveness of Tier 2 and 3 nations. (I suspect that Japan took their game against the French Barbarians as seriously as that against Romania.) I would strongly prefer to see the information retained in a single article (for convenience and ease of reference) so perhaps this one should be renamed 2012 end-of-year rugby union tours or some such. Failing that, a new article for the Club type matches 2012 end-of-year rugby union non-tests or whatever. Does either of these offer a solution acceptable to all?

If so, I expect that we should have complete consistency and see similar solutions (status quo, rename article or split article) applied to all the other end-of-year tests articles, and the mid-year ones too, or we will have the same issue reoccuring. I would also like a strict definition of what constitutes a test, and what does not. Games against the Barbarian F.C.? What about the French Barbarians? Where do the "A" teams fit in, or Ireland XV? Hamish59 (talk) 13:04, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Games against Barbarian F.C. very often have test status conferred upon them; not sure about the French Barbarians though. If a new article title is required, I would go for 2012 end-of-year rugby union series. – Pee Jay 22:26, 27 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If a new article title is required, do we need "international" in there somewhere? Or some reflection on the fact that it is national teams that are playing? Hamish59 (talk) 08:41, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Now that you mention it, yes, that would be a good addition. So, if we are insistent on including these inappropriate matches, the title should be 2012 end-of-year rugby union international series. – Pee Jay 14:30, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Requested move 10 November 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) JC7V (talk) 03:17, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

– On behalf of User:Mr Hall of England, reason: to keep consistency with 2014 end-of-year rugby union internationals. Crouch, Swale (talk) 22:34, 10 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Consistency as per nom. -- Ham105 (talk) 04:32, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Consistency as per nom. -- TheMightyPeanut (talk) 01:57, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support - for consistency. The standard name for these type of articles is "end-of-year" rather than the Northern Hemisphere-specific "Autumn". --Bcp67 (talk) 06:23, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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