This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Loki season 2 article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 30 days

This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Television: Episode coverage / Marvel Cinematic Universe Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Television, a collaborative effort to develop and improve Wikipedia articles about television programs. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page where you can join the discussion. To improve this article, please refer to the style guidelines for the type of work.TelevisionWikipedia:WikiProject TelevisionTemplate:WikiProject Televisiontelevision Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the Episode coverage task force. This article is supported by the Marvel Cinematic Universe task force (assessed as Top-importance). Comics: Marvel Bottom‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Comics, a collaborative effort to build an encyclopedic guide to comics on Wikipedia. Get involved! If you would like to participate, you can help with the current tasks, visit the notice board, edit the attached article or discuss it at the project's talk page.ComicsWikipedia:WikiProject ComicsTemplate:WikiProject ComicsComics Bottom This article has been rated as Bottom-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by Marvel Comics work group.

Text and/or other creative content from this version of Loki (TV series) was copied or moved into Loki (season 2) with this edit on 12:14, June 15, 2022. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future: https://comicbook.com/marvel/news/loki-cinematographer-season-2-final-shot-meaningful-production-exclusive/ https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/loki-composer-natalie-holt-batgirl-2-1235633506/

This section is pinned and will not be automatically archived.

Breakdown of each episode's main on-end billing, plus cast list. Actors in bold indicate the first appearance of the character, with the episodes they appear in after.

- Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:57, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed that a post-credit scene has been included for episode 1. However, the problem is that it is not important. We know Sylvie will work at McDonald's in the year 1983, but that itself isn't that important. JEDIMASTER2008 (talk) 07:34, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A reader who doesn't watch the episodes may not understand how she got there and even showed up. This scene shows well what the first thing Sylvia did after killing He Who Remains. Just because we editors know ahead of time that she's going to work there doesn't mean it shouldn't be written about for the readers. Dan watcher 32 (talk) 10:33, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is very much important as it reveals where Sylvie went after the previous season's finale. InfiniteNexus (talk) 22:11, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, sorry. I was dismissing it as trivial at first. JEDIMASTER2008 (talk) 15:24, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Good afternoon. We offer you the option of creating separate articles on the episodes of the series. I and some other participants in the Russian-language Wikipedia segment have created articles on the episodes of the season. If you have a desire, you can use these versions as a basis )). Have a great day)

• [1]
• [2]

Dan watcher 32 (talk) 16:36, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There are currently drafts for the first 2 episodes. They're just not quite ready to be moved to the mainspace yet.

1. Ouroboros
2. Breaking Brad

-- ZooBlazer^talk 16:38, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Good, glad everything is great) Hope to release episodes soon) Dan watcher 32 (talk) 16:43, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There's been a dispute on whether to call Ouroboros "O.B." or "O. B." Favre1fan93 and Gonnym prefer "O. B.", citing MOS:INITIALS. However, I feel that MOS:INITIALS actually allows for "O.B.", as it says An initial is capitalized and is followed by a full point (period) and a space (e.g. J. R. R. Tolkien), unless the person demonstrably has a different, consistently preferred style for their own name; and an overwhelming majority of reliable sources use that variant style for that person. The evidence below supports this.

Person demonstrably has a different, consistently preferred style for their own name:

• marvel.com, website of the owner of the character
  • [3] OUROBOROS O.B. ... Meet O.B.
  • [4] Ouroboros, or "O.B." for short ... Take a peek at Loki and O.B. in the video below!
  • [5] playing Ouroboros — or O.B. for short
  • [6] a new O.B. Funko Pop!
• Funko Pop, which sells an official toy of the character
  • [7] POP! O.B.
• X/Twitter account for the show:
  • [8] Ouroboros. Or O.B. for short!

Overwhelming majority of reliable sources use that variant style for that person:

1. The New York Times [9]
2. The A.V. Club [10]
3. The Mary Sue [11]
4. Space.com [12]
5. Collider [13]
6. Gizmodo [14]
7. Polygon [15]
8. Rotten Tomatoes [16]
9. IGN [17]
10. Apple [18]

Multiple exceptions to "full point and a space" for initials for a wide variety of fictional characters/groups already exist on Wikipedia.

1. "MJ" from article MJ (Marvel Cinematic Universe), not "M. J."
2. "E.T." from article E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial, not "E. T."
3. "M.K." from article Epic (2013 film), not "M. K."
4. "J.P." from article Digimon Frontier, not "J. P."
5. "C.C." from article C.C. (Code Geass), not "C. C."
6. "K.K. Slider", name of an Animal Crossing character, not "K. K. Slider"
7. "Boris Alphonzo 'B.A.' Felton" from article Knights of the Dinner Table, not "B. A. Felton"
8. "O.C." from article The O.C. (professional wrestling), not "O. C."
9. "AJ Styles", ring name of a professional wrestler, not "A. J. Styles"
10. "J.B." or "JB" and "K.G." or "KG" from article Tenacious D in The Pick of Destiny, not "J. B." or "K. G."

In light of the above, and the lack of evidence that either "O. B." or "O B" are favoured in either primary sources or secondary sources, why are we insisting on deviations from primary sources and secondary sources? starship.paint (RUN) 06:37, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• @Trailblazer101 and ZooBlazer: - notify other frequent contributors to Loki content. starship.paint (RUN) 06:38, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Other than ET, none of the articles you linked to are GA or above. So basically, it's a WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS but it's also comparing with un-validated articles. ET was given FA status in 2007 and a random version of the MoS from 2009 does not address initials. So there is even a question if the current guideline has even been really addressed.

You quoted the guideline which says unless the person demonstrably has a different, consistently preferred style for their own name and then linked to places where (obviously) the person has not commented on their preferred style, since they are a fictional character which can't comment on anything. That brings up the question, do creators of fictional characters count here or not. This isn't something that should be asked or answered in a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS but in the guideline's talk page. Now since this part of the guideline can't be answered here and the guideline requires that both criteria a and b (this is a) are met, then the discussion's result can't be anything other than stalled until this issue is resolved.

A finale thought here, just to make it a bit more complicated. The guideline ends with: Initials are not nicknames; do not put them in quotation marks or insert them in mid-name, as in John Thomas Smith better known as "J. T." Smith or John Thomas (J. T.) Smith. which we are also doing incorrectly. MOS:NICKNAME does not have an example of a nickname which uses initials. This again leads me to believe that the correct venue here is the project guideline talk page. Gonnym (talk) 09:31, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Gonnym: - there are more key content policies to consider: WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:OR, all of whom favour “O.B.” more as the more verifiable name due to it being indisputably more used in sources than “O. B.” both primary and secondary. Remember that MOS:INITIALS is a guideline, that is officially stated to be a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply. Our policies come first. starship.paint (RUN) 01:40, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

None of the policy pages you linked to talk about how to write a person's name so there isn't a conflict between them and the guideline. Wikipedia's in house style oftens ignores how other places style their text. We do this with film titles such as Seven (1995 film), we do this with with dashes and qoutes, and we do this names that use "Jr" in them. Again, all your arguments are directed at the guideline which you have an issue with, and that means that you need to go to the guideline page to address them. I really don't understand why you aren't doing that. Gonnym (talk) 09:22, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I also agree that there is issue with the guideline as its interpretation give two valid points of views: using "O.B." as well as "O. B.". "O. B." is the proper styling we should use here (given the current guideline wording), even if I personally feel "O.B." is correct, though I can't bring my personal opinion into the matter when the guideline (again, currently) states with spaces should be used. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:01, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You should read the efn at MOS:INITIALS: WP:Requested moves has consistently interpreted the "Initials" section as also applying to names of fictional characters. InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:20, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You've made a compelling argument here: policy supports using "O.B.", our sources use "O.B.", and it's consistent with how we treat other similar names in our other articles. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not an excuse to ignore the internal consistency that has emerged, and this honestly also feels like a WP:SILENCE situation. The MOS is important, but not to the point that we ignore what our RS use. —Locke Cole • t • c 06:07, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Are we seriously debating on whether or not to add a space in-between the initials of a fictional character's name? We have the likes of living persons such as J. J. Abrams, J. B. Smoove, D. B. Weiss, among others with spaces which is very common across articles for BLPs, though as a fictional character, it is under my presumption that we should follow the base media for the naming: ie the credits, subtitles, etc. I'm indifferent on this given both get the name across and are hardly different minus a space, which can aid in readability for some. I will say, either variation of "O. B." or "O.B." could be the WP:COMMONNAME, as could "Ouroboros" given both are frequently used in sourcing, though the latter is the full character's name as we know it and ought to be used as the title of any potential article of this subject, and it is already marked as the primary redirect at Ouroboros (Marvel Cinematic Universe). Sources do not supersede Wikipedia stylization guidelines and policies. If the policies are unclear, then those may need to be addressed there. Trailblazer101 (talk) 20:14, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

While I have no weight in this discussion, the quote of Sources do not supersede Wikipedia stylization guidelines and policies is completely correct. It's how we had the extreme situation of Talk:Cost of Living (Star Trek: The Next Generation)#Episode is now at the wrong title (and at Cause and Effect (Star Trek: The Next Generation)), as an editor determined that "Of" and "And" (per sources) was completely different words to "of" and "and" (per Wikipedia styling guidelines). -- Alex_21 _TALK 08:01, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Star Trek Into Darkness has entered the chat. —Locke Cole • t • c 20:14, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A very good example to show how extreme of a discussion and consensus was needed to move away from Wikipedia's standard grammar and styling guidelines and policies to change a singular title. There is not what's needed or proceeding here, so it remains clear we stick to what every other article abides by. Thank you for showing us that, Locke! -- Alex_21 _TALK 20:24, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I look at it more as a sad display of how easily people are willing to ignore core content policies just to have letters appear the way they want. —Locke Cole • t • c 20:44, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So did Spider-Man: Far From Home. That doesn't mean anything, WP:COMMONNAME doesn't govern prose. InfiniteNexus (talk) 21:56, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, I was just replying to @Alex 21's comment which appeared designed to troll me. —Locke Cole • t • c 01:04, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Again: core policies and sources do not cover styling and grammar. It's that simple. -- Alex_21 _TALK 03:32, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]