This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Ms. Marvel (miniseries) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 30 days

This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Comics: Marvel Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Comics, a collaborative effort to build an encyclopedic guide to comics on Wikipedia. Get involved! If you would like to participate, you can help with the current tasks, visit the notice board, edit the attached article or discuss it at the project's talk page.ComicsWikipedia:WikiProject ComicsTemplate:WikiProject ComicsComics Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by Marvel Comics work group. Disney Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Disney, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of The Walt Disney Company and its affiliated companies on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DisneyWikipedia:WikiProject DisneyTemplate:WikiProject DisneyDisney Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Television: Marvel Cinematic Universe Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Television, a collaborative effort to develop and improve Wikipedia articles about television programs. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page where you can join the discussion. To improve this article, please refer to the style guidelines for the type of work.TelevisionWikipedia:WikiProject TelevisionTemplate:WikiProject Televisiontelevision Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the Marvel Cinematic Universe task force (assessed as Top-importance). United States: Television Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by American television task force.

This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report 2 times. The weeks in which this happened: June 5 to 11, 2022 (24th) July 10 to 16, 2022 (23rd)

This section is pinned and will not be automatically archived until 14:48, 8 December 2022 (UTC).

Breakdown of each episode's main on-end billing, plus cast list. Actors in bold indicate the first appearance of the character, with the episodes they appear in after.

- Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:44, 29 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The mosque's exterior is the fabulous Fox Theatre in Atlanta, mostly from the Ponce & Peachtree intersection. Although the Georgian Terrace makes an appearance in views from further down Ponce. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:37B0:26C0:C8D5:A190:D6C:ED33 (talk) 22:19, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide a reliable source stating this so it can be included. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:22, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So it was rumored a while ago in September of last year that Marvel Studios had started development on a second season of Ms. Marvel, but I realized we haven't added a section totally devoted to talking about a potential second season. Should we add one? 72.213.40.101 (talk) 01:15, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No reliable sources confirm movement on a second season so no. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 01:32, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You sure? I thought Wikipedia was supposed to be a community thing where everyone can add something that others might not know about. Think about it. Just how many people do you think know that there's a chance there could be a second season of Ms. Marvel? Not everyone goes on the net to see if there will be, so we have to add something here to make sure they know about the chances of a second season, don't you think? 72.213.40.101 (talk) 14:39, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone can add something if they can cite a reliable source that verifies that something. DonQuixote (talk) 15:33, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A rumor can end up being entirely true or entirely made up, so adding rumors to Wikipedia can end up being engaging in disinformation, which could spread everywhere just because it is included here. —El Millo (talk) 16:52, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, what the hell is wrong with that? It's pretty much common knowledge at this point where there is a chance Ms. Marvel could get a second season, so....I think it's fine if we add a section talking about that. If you don't let certain people, including me, add a section about a possible second season, you're preventing a lot of other people from knowing that they could see Ms. Marvel get a season two. And you don't want to do that 'cause that could end up being engaging in "disinformation"? Well, SIT ON THAT FOR A WHILE! 72.213.40.101 (talk) 00:29, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Any "chance" you speak of is just from online chatter that anyone can put out there. Such unconfirmed info is not need and bloated compared to legitimate facts, which Wikipedia strives off of using. Trailblazer101 (talk) 00:33, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You may want to check out WP:RUMOR which says to not include rumors because there's nothing concrete to back them up. -- Zoo (talk) 00:36, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OP has been anon-blocked for addition of unsourced content. —El Millo (talk) 04:12, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I feel like 19 names qualified as "also starring" in the introducing paragraph are probably 15 too many. Kumagoro-42 (talk) 17:53, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The list of starring cast members is determined by onscreen credits, not our personal opinions. See WP:TVCAST and WP:MCUTVCAST for more. - adamstom97 (talk) 01:09, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Kumagoro-42: I agree. The full cast is listed in the infobox and also detailed in its own dedicated section in the body. I see no reason why the lede should be cluttered with the same long list of names. DA1 (talk) 17:16, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The lead is supposed to summarize the contents of the article. We are not going to remove virtually all of the cast members minus Vellani just because some think it is too much. As Adam said, we go by the official cast order, not your personal preference. Trailblazer101 (talk) 17:22, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) The lead is supposed to have things from the body of the article. Its purpose is to summarize everything, which includes the starring cast members. -- ZooBlazer 17:22, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see listing the full cast inside the lede, if it's long, as being productive to the summary of the article. Hypothetically, if a film or series gives equal billing to 50 or 150 actors, where do you draw the line for inclusion? Serious question.

I came into this article purely as a reader with little foreknowledge and I found the lede to be borderline unreadable. I haven't checked other MCU articles similar to this, but if this is the standard Project MOS then that's a huge problem for readers. WP:IGNORE may need to be invoked. The current layout has the same effect as a lede with many MOS:ALTNAMES. In that scenario the names are to be listed out in a separate section and/or footnote. In the context of cast, there is already a dedicated section and infobox listing them for the readers. The two, along with the lede, are all in close proximity and, hence, seems redundant and the lede feels cluttered. Maybe an WP:RFC should be called from non-Project editors to share their input. DA1 (talk) 01:44, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You removed all of the starring cast members from the lead and have ignored the policies on listing cast members of a TV series and WP:LOCALCONSENSUS for this to be retained in this way. Not all readers (especially mobile viewers) read the infoboxes of these articles, so we absolutely should be introducing who stars in this series as the main cast here just as much as we do in the infobox. It is consistent with the main cast order in the Cast section. I'm sorry if you found it difficult to read, though it is rather straightforward and clear, so I'm not sure how this is a pressing issue when it is still legible. We are not just going to ignore all rules because two editors don't like the TV cast policy, and quite frankly, starting an RFC over this would be fruitless. Go look at good articles like Avengers: Infinity War and Avengers: Endgame for film examples where this is also done and acceptable. The same applies to this series. It's not like we are listing every single person who appears, just those who are officially credited as the starring cast. We are also not going to pick and choose who to keep or remove, as that is blatantly against policy and frowned upon. Trailblazer101 (talk) 06:32, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the credits should be removed from the lead, but there are perhaps other ways to present that info to make it more readable (MOS:SEAOFBLUE concerns). WP:MCUTVCAST suggests blending the TV & Film MOS for MCU show credits so I think the MOS:FILMLEAD guidance could be a useful approach to the lead. It states "in terms of plot, the general premise should be briefly described, along with any actors' roles within it". The lead could be revised to something like: Iman Vellani stars as Kamala Khan, with Matt Lintz and Yasmeen Fletcher as her friends Bruno Carrelli and Nakia Bahadir and with Zenobia Shroff, Mohan Kapur, and Saagar Shaikh as members of the immediate Khan family. The cast also includes [...]}.

I will also caution against assuming there's a local consensus; this is the article's first discussion on the topic so the consensus is developing right now. Also, the MCU project doesn't have any specific guidance on article leads so there's no project consensus to refer to. Sariel Xilo (talk) 18:08, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is clear consensus across the MCU articles for how this is apporached, and there would need to be a good reason to treat this article differently from all of the others. - adamstom97 (talk) 09:29, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have links to an RfC or other project discussions that explain how the MCU project has determined how credits should be presented in the lead? (If so, why isn't this in the project's style guide?). Those would be a good way to determine how a project decided on a local consensus and if it is applicable in this situation. But "this is simply the pattern all MCU articles follow only know by the MCU editors" without discussion isn't a local consensus.

Additionally, WP:LOCALCONSENSUS states: "For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope". In this case, there is real issue with the MOS:SEAOFBLUE that perhaps has not come up in other articles because the cast list here is so long which is "good reason" to find a solution in the presentation style. Sariel Xilo (talk) 16:08, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:SEAOFBLUE does not apply because we are talking about a list, not multiple links that can be mistaken as one. The guideline for listing cast in the lead of MCU articles is the same as those for infoboxes (at WP:MCUFILMCAST and WP:MCUTVCAST), it is not expected that these be different from one another. And the one time that we have used a shorter list for the lead and infobox vs. the cast section (which is what I think you are suggesting here) was Infinity War, which has 27 cast members but only 19 in the lead and infobox. Ms. Marvel has 20 so it is basically on par with Infinity War's short list already. We also don't have an objective short list for this show like we do for Infinity War. - adamstom97 (talk) 21:13, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not making an argument for a shorter list. I'm making an argument for how to state all the credits in a more readable fashion within the lead (as seen in the example sentence I listed above which starts with "Iman Vellani") specifically by following the guidance at MOS:FILMLEAD on bringing in plot when listing the actor credits in the lead. Neither project links you listed mention lead format (there's basically no project guidance on lead paragraphs outside of WP:MCUVARIANTS which mentions one type of sentence that isn't relevant for credits). Sariel Xilo (talk) 21:52, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The format of leads in general for MCU articles are very standardised, there is no precedent (or need) to change that. - adamstom97 (talk) 12:06, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Articles are looked at in a case-by-case basis so while this issue may not have previously been discussed at other MCU articles, editors here have decided there's an issue so having a discussion is part of consensus-building. "This is the way the MCU project has always done it" isn't a very compelling argument (WP:OTHERCONTENT; WP:WHATABOUT is AfD focused but also might be useful to think about). Sariel Xilo (talk) 16:30, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• (Current lead) Iman Vellani stars as Kamala Khan, with Matt Lintz, Yasmeen Fletcher, Zenobia Shroff, Mohan Kapur, Saagar Shaikh, Laurel Marsden, Azhar Usman, Rish Shah, Arian Moayed, Alysia Reiner, Laith Nakli, Nimra Bucha, Travina Springer, Adaku Ononogbo, Samina Ahmad, Fawad Khan, Mehwish Hayat, Farhan Akhtar, and Aramis Knight also starring.

1. Iman Vellani stars as Kamala Khan, with Matt Lintz and Yasmeen Fletcher as her friends Bruno Carrelli and Nakia Bahadir and with Zenobia Shroff, Mohan Kapur, and Saagar Shaikh as members of the immediate Khan family. The cast also includes Laurel Marsden, Azhar Usman, Rish Shah, Arian Moayed, Alysia Reiner, Laith Nakli, Nimra Bucha, Travina Springer, Adaku Ononogbo, Samina Ahmad, Fawad Khan, Mehwish Hayat, Farhan Akhtar, and Aramis Knight.
2. Iman Vellani stars as Kamala Khan, with Matt Lintz and Yasmeen Fletcher as her friends Bruno Carrelli and Nakia Bahadir and with Zenobia Shroff, Mohan Kapur, and Saagar Shaikh as members of the immediate Khan family. The cast includes Laurel Marsden, Azhar Usman, Rish Shah, Arian Moayed, Alysia Reiner, Laith Nakli, Travina Springer as characters in the Jersey City community. As Kamala's powers develop, she encounters the Clandestines, portrayed by Nimra Bucha and Adaku Ononogbo. Kamala's journey takes her to Pakistan where she discovers her family history during the partition of India – Samina Ahmad, Fawad Khan, and Mehwish Hayat star as her extended family. She also meets the vigilantes known as the Red Daggers, portrayed by Farhan Akhtar, and Aramis Knight.
3. Iman Vellani stars as Kamala Khan, with Matt Lintz and Yasmeen Fletcher as her friends Bruno Carrelli and Nakia Bahadir and with Zenobia Shroff, Mohan Kapur, and Saagar Shaikh as members of the immediate Khan family. As Kamala's powers develop, she encounters Kamran (Rish Shah) who introduces her to the Clandestines led by his mother Najma (Nimra Bucha). Kamala's journey takes her to Pakistan where she discovers her family history during the partition of India and truth of her great-grandmother Aisha's (Mehwish Hayat) disappearance. She also meets Kareem (Aramis Knight), a member of the vigilantes known as the Red Daggers who oppose the Clandestines.

@Kumagoro-42, Adamstom.97, DA1, Trailblazer101, and ZooBlazer: I've drafted two lead ideas which bring in plot (as suggested at MOS:FILMLEAD). The first adheres strictly to the credit order; the second flips two credits in order to keep characters within their respective in setting groups (ie. Nimra Bucha as the leader of Clandestines, Travina Springer as a Jersey City character). Looking at MOS:TVLEAD & MOS:TVCAST, credit order is focused on the cast listing section & infobox so I think grouping roles together by in-universe group to outline plot in the lead is acceptable. My personal preference is #2 because I think it does a better job at using plot and addressing some of the above concerns about a giant list by breaking it up into readable chunks. Feel free to add alterations or suggest other ideas above. Sariel Xilo (talk) 16:34, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I decided to look at some WP:GOOD & WP:FA TV articles with large casts to see what other editors have done. Articles such as Fringe (TV series), American Horror Story, Game of Thrones don't list the full main cast in the lead; Wizards of Waverly Place has a plot focused lead without listing the full main cast. Following that example, I removed the general Jersey City characters entirely and trimmed the rest to focus on the show's plot in #3. Sariel Xilo (talk) 17:44, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All of these suggestions add way too much additional unnecessary information about plot and characters. Given Vellani is the start of the series, we not she stars as Kamala. It is then helpful to note the other starring actors (and just that) following. Are brief summary/premise at the end of the first paragraph only mentions Kamala so there is no need to expand upon who everyone else is playing. The leads of the MCU Disney+ series have evolved from that used at Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. (a Good article) and Marvel Television's other series, so I don't see why this one needs to be altered simply because there are "too many" starring actors on this one. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:49, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree that additional plot details are unnecessary; the only plot detail in the current lead is "Kamala Khan, a 16-year-old fangirl of the Avengers who struggles to fit in until she gains her own powers" which doesn't really tell you much about the show. Two of the examples I listed (Fringe (TV series) & Wizards of Waverly Place) include plot details in slightly different styles and I think either could be a good model for the amount of plot the Ms. Marvel lead should have. Even your AoS example includes more plot details ("S.H.I.E.L.D. agents deal with various unusual cases and enemies, including Hydra, Inhumans, Life Model Decoys, alien species such as the Kree and Chronicoms, and time travel") than the Ms. Marvel lead has. Both the Clandestines & the journey to Pakistan are key parts of the plot of this show and should be mentioned in some fashion. While I don't have much experience with FAs, some of the feedback I received highlighted the importance of including plot details in the lead so I don't think this unusual for TV articles.

As an aside, if MCU project editors want to update their style guide and include details on how the project settled on different conventions, that would be awesome. Sariel Xilo (talk) 22:52, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]