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This biographical article avoids the use of gendered pronouns. See Talk: Thomas Baty#Updated article for name and pronoun consistency.

I was just skimming the article and didnt really notice "they" referred to the subject. After confusion arose I checked the infobox or the top of the article for the info, but there is none, the usage is implied only in the introduction sentence. Would it make sense to explicitly state it before the article in italic? I think the usage is totally legitimate, I don't think it can be taken for granted though. EnTerbury (talk) 17:51, 13 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

See my new topic here: https://teknopedia.ac.id/wiki/Talk:Thomas_Baty#c-Throughthemind-20240704164000-Updated_article_for_name_and_pronoun_consistency Throughthemind (talk) 16:40, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that many (but not all) modern non-binary people prefer to be referred to as 'they', but surely it is anachronistic to impose 'they' on Baty without knowing what his preferences were. This appears to be less a reflection of Baty's preferences than an attempt to claim Baty for the non-binary movement.

I also noticed the following inconsistent use of pronouns:

following the death of Henry Willard Denison, a US citizen who served in that position until their death in 1914.

An important person in their life was their sister, who went with them to Japan in 1916, and lived with them until her death in 1944.

Since Henry Willard Denison isn't around to make a choice of pronoun, and doesn't appear to have been non-binary, isn't it rather presumptuous to use 'their' while using 'her' for Baty's sister?

59.153.112.147 (talk) 00:13, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

These are fair points, I've reverted back to he/him pronouns as Baty never stated a preference to use they/them. Throughthemind (talk) 10:12, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

See my new topic here: https://teknopedia.ac.id/wiki/Talk:Thomas_Baty#c-Throughthemind-20240704164000-Updated_article_for_name_and_pronoun_consistency Throughthemind (talk) 16:40, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've come up with a compromise to try and best reflect Baty/Clyde's identity and based on how Pepperell handles it in her thesis here. I don't think there's a perfect solution, but I hope this works at least for the time being. Throughthemind (talk) 16:40, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In my view, it remains inappropriate and anachronistic to use they/them pronouns. I don't think a single Master's thesis suffices to introduce the change. How many scholarly sources use anything other than he/him? I don't think we should be rewriting articles on persons born in the 1800s to introduce pronouns they would not themselves have used. GhostOfNoMan 17:27, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And as noted, Baty never expressed any such preference. The compromise seems confusing and unnecessary. I think the article should use he/him throughout. GhostOfNoMan 17:32, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

> How many scholarly sources use anything other than he/him?

Here's several:

• this book uses they/them: "If they were alive today, Clyde likely would fit a framework of trans identity"[1]
• this academic paper uses she/her: "During this time, Clyde established herself as an editor and author of radical feminist thought"[2]
• this thesis uses she/her: "Two of Clyde’s other books—her memoir Alone in Japan (1959) and her collection of essays on gender Eve’s Sour Apples (1934)—are out of print and have not been digitised."[3]
• this academic paper uses his/her: "...a footnote in the introduction refers the reader to a volume of essays by I. Clyde entitled Eve's Sour Apples, in which Baty/Clyde takes as his/her watchwords 'feminism, aristocracy and pacifism'."[4]
• this thesis uses she/her: "Clyde's feminine ideal was based on her image of a Victorian woman who combined the best characteristics of both sexes — sweetness and independence."[5]
• this academic paper uses she/her: "I do not put a definitive label on Irene Clyde’s gender identity. For much of her life she presented male and was known as Thomas Baty; however, she wrote under the name of Irene and was known to use she/her pronouns. In the language of the time, it would have been said that she 'lived as a man' or 'lived as a woman', depending."[6]
• this thesis uses his/their: "Clyde was one of the pseudonyms used by Thomas Baty, a British citizen who lived most of his/their life as a man, though he/they often attacked the gender binary in essays published throughout the course of his/their28 life (White)."[7]
• this book chapter uses his/her: "One person who might well be understood as transgendered today, but who in his/her own time understood his/her sense of self in spiritual and political terms, was the British feminist Thomas Baty, who preferred to be known as Irene Clyde."[8]

Overall, there seems to not be a consensus on how to refer to Baty. They/them is only used in a couple of sources, but she/her is used commonly at least to refer to Irene Clyde when discussing this identity.

> And as noted, Baty never expressed any such preference. The compromise seems confusing and unnecessary. I think the article should use he/him throughout.

Having looked at a few articles of historical figures where there's no consensus of what pronouns to use in an article with a historical person of uncertain gender identity, it seems that the general consensus is to remove usage of pronouns altogether:

• Talk:John/Eleanor_Rykener/Archive_1#Pronouns_and_descriptions
• Talk:James_Barry_(surgeon)/Archive_2#Request_for_comment:_Pronouns
• Talk:Marsha_P._Johnson#Pronouns

Based on this, I propose for this article to remove the usage of pronouns all together and to use the name Thomas Baty when referring to the public persona and Irene Clyde when discussing this identity and related works (with a note for clarity). Throughthemind (talk) 19:51, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking the time to compile those sources.

It seems they/them has some limited use, although she/her is more frequent. I haven't tried to calculate even a rough ratio for each set of pronouns, but I do believe that he/him continues to dominate in academic writing. From a very preliminary search: Journal of International Legal History, University of Oxford Bodleian Libraries, Journal of Media History, Portraits of Women in International Law, International Journal of Law in Context. It may be losing ground in more recent writing, though, and I note some sources are inconsistent or avoid pronouns entirely.

Having looked at a few articles of historical figures where there's no consensus of what pronouns to use in an article with a historical person of uncertain gender identity, it seems that the general consensus is to remove usage of pronouns altogether

Yeah, that was broadly my conclusion too when I looked for enlightenment on policy/consensus/style, earlier. It also comes up in MOS:GIDINFO#Best practices: "If consensus cannot be reached over which pronouns to use for a subject, rewriting to avoid pronouns altogether may be considered." (Although rather few articles seem to belong to the category: Category:Articles tagged for avoiding gendered pronoun usage.)

Based on this, I propose for this article to remove the usage of pronouns all together and to use the name Thomas Baty when referring to the public persona and Irene Clyde when discussing this identity and related works (with a note for clarity).

I support this. It does away with the issue nicely, in my view. GhostOfNoMan 00:19, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Great! I've updated the article to reflect this decision. Feel free to improve any wording that doesn't flow well. Throughthemind (talk) 10:14, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]